Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

Last post 05-16-2007, 3:46 PM by txhockey. 8 replies.
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  •  10-14-2006, 10:25 AM Post number 2758

    Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    This article, currently posted here on Simple Talk, got me thinking...

    Sure, lots of people put outright lies on their CV.  And we need to filter them out when interviewing.  But what about the ones who don't know they're not telling the truth?

    A bit of background on this question: I was recently asked by one of my clients to assist them in hiring a DBA.  I helped them write a job ad, then assisted them in sorting through some of the resumes they received in response to the ad, to find the top candidates.  Once done with that, I did phone screens to help determine which candidates should be brought in for interviews.

    I chose candidates with resumes that listed excellent SQL Server backgrounds, and started the phone screens with questions about where the candidates thought their strongest points were.  Then I drilled into those areas.  Many candidates told me that they were very good at performance tuning, one or two even using the term "expert," yet the majority were unable to even answer my simple questions, let alone get into the more challenging territory I hoped to cover.  Candidates also expounded on their knowledge of server management, SQL Server internals, and other areas, almost all ending up not knowing how to answer my questions or worse (trying to bullshit me with fake answers).

    All in all, I spoke to 10 candidates, each of which had fairly similar backgrounds and amounts of experience according to their resumes.  Only one tried to con me with fake/made up answers -- and he is the only one I can assume had completely falsified his resume.  Seven of the remaining respondants did poorly enough on the screen that they were not invited in for an interview.  And two were invited in.

    In talking to the seven who didn't do so well (but who also didn't try to hide behind fake answers), all were quite confident at first, then shocked when they heard some of my questions.  So I'm wondering -- is this a matter of outright lies on the part of many job candidates, or is the real problem simply ignorance about what they do and do not know?  Any thoughts?

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  •  10-14-2006, 12:54 PM Post number 2775 in reply to post number 2758

    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    I've done a lot of interviewing for technical roles over the years. I wish I could say that I have never let a bullshitter through, but I reckon I've done quite well. 

    Some candidates have been complete fantasists. These characters are like the medical wannabies who lie their way into hospitals just for the thrill of performing operations, and basking in the imagined respect. Quite often, they have utterly convinced themselves of the truth of their fake training and experiences.

    Other candidates have been deliberate fraudsters who want the money without the grief of the training and experience required to do the job properly. Occasionally they live the lie for so long that they begin to believe it themselves.

    One meets candidates who actually have the experience, but  without any aptitude whatsoever for the job. These have failed to keep up with their reading or training, and have no idea of the extent of their inadequacy.

    For different reasons, all these candidates will present thmselves for technical interviw eagerly. Mostly, as the interview progresses they become aware of their inadequacy. Occasionally they don't and will tell their agent that they did really well.

    The first trick in any technical interview is to understand what skills you really want. There is often a huge difference between the skills you think you need and the skills you really need.

    The second trick is to ask questions that require an understanding of the technology rather than just getting them to spout facts. Human BOLs (Books on Legs) are useless for any real work It is not particularly just experience in a technology but an understanding of it that you want, and an ability to learn fast under pressure, and to know where to look for information.

    The third trick is to have a series of simple questions where the answer would be known by anyone who had ever worked with the technology. As far as SQL Server goes, we all have our favourites but I'd never let slip, in a public forum, what they are!

    The way of making ones life simple is to stop using any agency who presents a bullshitting candidate. This forces them to do all the screening, and CV checking beforehand. If they ask you what the technical questions are that they should ask, again you should use another agency. The word soon spreads amongst the agencies, and the bullshitters and fraudsters stop coming. This may sound tough but it is only forcing them to do the work they are supposed to do anyway, and for which they get paid handomely.

     

     

  •  10-14-2006, 5:25 PM Post number 2782 in reply to post number 2775

    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    I like your point about aptitude vs. "knowledge" (i.e., your "books on legs").  And I think that while many people interviewing try to convince the employer about what they do know, it is even more important in my eyes that the candidate shows me that they understand what they don't know.  The kind of people who don't know their limits will tend to bang their heads against the wall when they come up against a challenge during a project -- I remember working with one such guy, who stayed late every night for a week trying to fix a major hurdle that he couldn't seem to get around.  Everyone in the office was waiting on him (he was blocking progress on an important project), but he refused help.  Finally, come Friday we got to talking over lunch and he told me the details of the issue.  I typed the error he was getting into Google and two minutes later we had the solution... He was shocked, and said he never would have thought to simply search for help!


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  •  10-17-2006, 8:07 AM Post number 2871 in reply to post number 2782

    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    I think there are a lot of people who don't know what they don't know.

    Most companies I go to there are people who are very protective about their position and try not to let anyone have a view of the way they are doing things. They therfor end up doing things very manually and ineficiently.

    I am working with someone now who is looking at going for another job and advertising himeself as an expert in datawarehousing and sql server. His only datawarehouse experience is the (very poor) one he is working on at the moment. As for sql server he struggles with data relationships and still is very surprised that batch updates are faster than row by row updates and doesn't understand how one can be converted to the other. It's not that he is lying about his experience - it's just that he doesn't know how little exposure he has had.

    Also in the previous job there was a self proclamed sql server expert who was rejecting people at interviews because he didn't understand their (perfectly correct) answers because they were outside his limited knowledge. That company was a lot happier all round with junior staff so that people weren't continually contradicted and the department could pretend that things were very difficult. Also so the the consultancy company could make even more inroads to the processing.

    Saying that I have been to interviews and been asked questions that I don't know the answer to - sometimes because it's not a situation that should have arisen and sometimes just because I hadn't come across it before (but if I did I could quickly find a solution).

  •  10-18-2006, 2:05 PM Post number 2917 in reply to post number 2871

    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    nigelrivett:

    Also in the previous job there was a self proclamed sql server expert who was rejecting people at interviews because he didn't understand their (perfectly correct) answers because they were outside his limited knowledge. That company was a lot happier all round with junior staff so that people weren't continually contradicted and the department could pretend that things were very difficult. Also so the the



    LOL!  That brings back a memory... Several years ago I was laid off by a company, supposedly because there wasn't enough money, but really because the CTO (my manager) was annoyed due to the fact that I always corrected his numerous and blatant technical faux pas.  Unfortunately, it happened in front of customers a few times, because he would make an absolutely impossible claim in a technical presales meeting that would have screwed up the whole deal.  The customers weren't upset by the correction, but he certainly was, and the CEO didn't like the idea of his cohort being publicly corrected by some non-C-level employee.  I kind of learned my lesson and now keep my mouth shut (well, most of the time -- being a consultant, it's now my job to open my mouth ;))...



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  •  10-19-2006, 3:41 AM Post number 2957 in reply to post number 2758

    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    I hate being interviewed for a job. I loathe technical interviews simply because, for some reason, I lose all powers of rational thought and memory during the interview. When in such a state of high embarassment, I can hardly recall my own name. I wonder if some of the people who show that they patently know nothing about their subject during an interview do so because they suffer the same 'interview amnesia'.
  •  11-14-2006, 5:35 AM Post number 7786 in reply to post number 2957

    • Patriot is not online. Last active: 09-04-2008, 2:43 AM Patriot
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    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    I think interviewing techniques should change certainly for higher paid positions. I once attended an interview which had a panel of 12 people on it. Suffice to say, I was numbed into submission and didn't get the job, though I was well qualified.   


    Richard Morris
  •  11-22-2006, 11:24 PM Post number 8089 in reply to post number 2782

    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    Adam Machanic:
    I like your point about aptitude vs. "knowledge" (i.e., your "books on legs").  And I think that while many people interviewing try to convince the employer about what they do know, it is even more important in my eyes that the candidate shows me that they understand what they don't know.  The kind of people who don't know their limits will tend to bang their heads against the wall when they come up against a challenge during a project -- I remember working with one such guy, who stayed late every night for a week trying to fix a major hurdle that he couldn't seem to get around.  Everyone in the office was waiting on him (he was blocking progress on an important project), but he refused help.  Finally, come Friday we got to talking over lunch and he told me the details of the issue.  I typed the error he was getting into Google and two minutes later we had the solution... He was shocked, and said he never would have thought to simply search for help!

    I think this kind of person think he is good enough to solve problem but the fact is he is not so capable. I remember a word from my lecturer said people who don't wish to share his thought about a project with others might eventually go to the wrong direction. I remember a proverb sound something like this: 3 stupid get a better solution than a genius. (obviously this is not correct but the meaning is around there)


    It is better to be hate by who you are than to be love by what you are not
  •  05-16-2007, 3:46 PM Post number 26693 in reply to post number 2758

    • txhockey is not online. Last active: 06-05-2007, 10:11 AM txhockey
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    Re: Are they all lies, or is a lot of it mere ignorance?

    I run into this so many times.  I have made a good living being the DBA consultant that comes in and cleans up the mess made by these Human BOL (I saw that in one of the post, I really like it). 

    My current client was in that position.   The guy could puke up facts and figures from BOL but was clueless in doing any really work.   He did not backups, could not tell if he was in working in production or test, would change database schemas then ask why did this get changed.  He was finally walked after losing client data in a goof up and then lied about it.  But, this client's story is not unique but seems to be an all to common reality. 

     

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